Part 5: Army/CIA Unit Studied the Real UFO Blue Book Cases
© 2008 by Linda Moulton Howe
Copyright © 1999 - 2017 by Linda Moulton Howe.
All Rights Reserved.
This file is used with permission.
“I’m sure the CIA would have killed me to prevent my getting out
and talking about the classified UFO stuff. We had 26 people to start with
in that CIA Project Blue Book and I was the only one that survived and
got out because my boss helped me with the phony body cover.”
- “Stein,” Former Army/CIA UFO Analyst
September 24, 2008 Albuquerque, New Mexico - The following transcript is from the third taped interview I did by phone with Stein a day after I played excerpts from the previous two recordings with Stein's permission on Dreamland hosted by Art Bell. Since Stein had been warned that his or my or both of our phones were tapped, I called to check about any repercussions from the radio program. He said no one had called him at that point. I also asked him if he could send me copies of his Army Signal Corps discharge records from 1956 to 1960.
Phone Interview # 3
June 1, 1998
Stein: “Naturally anything having to do with my classified CIA work, I didn’t have anything on that. It stayed right in the file. My files were actually lost because I was told my records were burned up in the St. Louis (military record archives) fire. I had a medical problem with my teeth related to a previous military accident in a jeep and I was trying to get my military records. But they could not find any of my records and said they were destroyed in the St. Louis fire.
[ Editor’ Note: From the National Archives, “The 1973 Fire at the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, Missouri: On July 12, 1973, a disastrous fire at NPRC (MPR) destroyed approximately 16-18 million Official Military Personnel Files. The affected record collections are described below.”
Branch Personnel and Period Affected Estimated Loss
Army Personnel discharged November 1, 1912, to January
1, 1960 80%
Air Force Personnel discharged, September 25, 1947, to
January 1, 1964
(with names alphabetically after Hubbard, James E.) 75%
“No duplicate copies of the records that were destroyed in the fire were maintained, nor was a microfilm copy ever produced. There were no indexes created prior to the fire. In addition, millions of documents had been lent to the Department of Veterans Affairs before the fire occurred. Therefore, a complete listing of the records that were lost is not available.” ]
Stein: “The only thing that I have is just my discharge, which was dropped back from an officer to an SP4 or Sergeant or something like that and hid my identity in the CIA work.
DID YOUR DISCHARGE USE YOUR CURRENT REAL CIVILIAN NAME?
Yes. That was my regular military discharge. I didn’t get anything from the CIA after I had been discharged and was no longer working in that department. There probably is a file somewhere about me with the other false cover name I used in the CIA. That might not have been destroyed in the fire, but I’m sure there is no way for me to get my CIA records.
DO YOU HAVE ANY PHOTOS OR NEWSPAPERS FROM THAT 1956 TO 1960 PERIOD?
Once, I did have, but we had a fire, too, in one of our homes and I lost most of the things I did have. The only thing I have are news clippings when I first went into military service basic training from the local newspaper. [Later, I saw those clippings at his home.]
DID YOU EVER FIND OUT WHAT AGENCY THE NOTORIOUS MEN IN BLACK (MIBS) COME FROM?
Well, I'm not completely certain, but I know the FBI did interview some people about certain cases. And have you ever heard of Wackenhut Corporation? A long-time friend of mine has worked in the telephone company here for years (Fort Myers, Florida) and I did have him check to see where that recent warning phone call to me came from.
WHERE DID IT COME FROM?
It came from the Wackenhut Corporation. [ Editor's Note: The Wackenhut Corporation is a United States-based private security and investigation firm headquartered in Palm Beach Gardens, Florida. Wackenhut was founded in 1954, in Coral Gables, Florida, by George Wackenhut and three partners, all former FBI agents.]
IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT WACKENHUT ALSO DOES SECURITY WORK FOR THE NATIONAL RECONNAISSANCE OFFICE (NRO).
Yes, well, Wackenhut has worked for the CIA for a number of years. And you know, the FBI had files on individuals and organizations and apparently Wackenhut picked up where the FBI left off and is now working for the CIA, FBI, and other organizations that try to get information about certain people.
I think I know the reason why I was warned. I talked to a friend of mine who was also in the U. S. Army Signal Corps at that sensitive southeastern military base. He guessed that CIA powers at the base don’t want you, Linda, mentioning the name of that military post because they are still using the classified area we always had for the CIA for classified military equipment and activities.
WAS YOUR PHONE COMPANY FRIEND ABLE TO TELL IF IT WAS YOUR PHONE THAT WAS TAPPED?
Yes, he checked mine and it was definitely not tapped.
SO IT’S MY PHONE.
AT LEAST WE ARE GOING FORWARD AND I AM COMPLYING WITH THE PHONE CALLER’S REQUEST THAT I NOT USE THE NAME OR LOCATION OF THAT SOUTHEASTERN MILITARY BASE.
More Details About 1958 Visit
to Area 51 Groom Lake
WHAT DETAILS DO YOU REMEMBER ABOUT THE SIX DISC CRAFT THAT YOU, YOUR BOSS AND THE THREE OTHER MEN SAW AT AREA 51 GROOM LAKE IN 1958?
They were all saucer-shaped craft. Some were very small. Some were quite large. The Col. Jim did say the small ones were Vril craft from the Vril Society in Germany dating back to the 1920s. Some of the bigger ones – I asked if they were German. Col. Jim said some of them were extraterrestrial and two of the big ones in the back are German UFOs from the 1930s.
DID YOU ASK IF THE GERMANS MADE THEM? OR WERE THEY EXTRATERRESTRIAL CRAFT THAT HAD SOME HOW BEEN ADAPTED FOR THE GERMANS TO USE?
The Germans built the Vrils, but I understand that the Vril Society was in contact with extraterrestrials from 1917 onward. So, maybe the Germans were making the discs under the direction of, or with the help of, the extraterrestrials.
BACK IN 1958 WHEN YOU WERE AT AREA 51 GROOM LAKE AND YOU WERE TAKEN WITH YOUR BOSS AND THREE OTHER MEN TO THE ENCLOSURE, WAS IT INSIDE A MOUNTAIN? OR UNDERGROUND?
Part of it was inside a mountain (Papoose Mountain?) and part of it was not. But it was further beyond the special area where they had the TOP SECRET United States aircraft there. We went to like the third area where there is a landing strip that you land on in a normal USAF installation. Then you go about ten miles further and you find another little airstrip with its own hangars. Then you go further about another eight miles and you have the highly classified installation there with the UFOs in it and that's partly inside a mountain.
DID YOU GO THROUGH DOORS INTO A MOUNTAIN? DID YOU GO UNDERGROUND TO SEE THE CRAFT AND NON-HUMAN ENTITY?
The disc craft were in a major building along side the mountain and there were driveway and walkway areas that went right into the mountain. Inside the mountain were like carved out caves where they had like hangars. The alien being we looked at, he was out in the main office building part of that third complex.
WHEN YOU WENT INSIDE THE MOUNTAIN HANGARS, HOW MANY CRAFT DID YOU PERSONALLY SEE WITH YOUR OWN EYES?
It was like six or seven. Some were more distant where I was looking over foreground vehicles and I could only see the top of craft in the distance. I did ask Col. Jim about them and that’s the answer he gave me about what the little ones and big ones were.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE SHAPE, COLOR AND SO FORTH?
Most of them were a silver color. The small Vril craft were silver. The other ones were like light grey and a couple of big ones were a dark grey, or light black (charcoal).
IN DIAMETER, WHAT WERE THE BIGGEST?
I’d say 60 feet in diameter.
WHAT WAS THE DIAMETER OF THE SMALLER CRAFT?
Probably about 18 to 20 feet.
WERE THEY ON ANY PLATFORMS?
Some were sitting on like saw horses, but the supports were metal and heavier than a wooden saw horse. One of the big craft did have a gun-type thing below it and I was told it was what the Germans called ‘the death ray.’ Some kind of ray gun.
IN TERMS OF THE METAL SAW HORSES THAT PROPPED UP THE CRAFT, WERE EACH OF THE CRAFT DISC-SHAPED? OR WERE THERE DIFFERENT SHAPES?
The craft we saw at Groom Lake were all basically disc-shaped. Some had a bottom area to them or a round top area that stood up above the disc. That varied. But basically you would have to say they were all disc-shaped.
DID ANYONE DESCRIBE TRIANGLE OR WEDGE SHAPES? OR U-CURVED LIKE THE HEEL OF A SHOE?
WERE YOU ALLOWED TO GO CLOSER TO TOUCH ANY OF THE DISCS?
No, we just saw them from a doorway and walkway where we were passing by the area and back to the front side. We never got to touch them.
WHAT DID YOUR BOSS SAY ABOUT THE HALF DOZEN DISCS?
He said, ‘This is such a surprise. How could Germany be that advanced back in the 1920s and 1930s?’ He was shocked at that. I believe the two big ones were German and the two smaller ones were German Vrils and there were a couple of medium-sized craft with different tops and bottoms that Col. Jim said were literally extraterrestrial.
WAS ANY PART THAT YOU WERE LOOKING AT DESIGNATED AS SPECIFICALLY FROM THE CRAFT THAT THE 6-FINGERED HUMANOIDS WERE TAKEN FROM? OR THE SMALL, SPINDLY GREYS?
No, there was no comment about which craft belonged to which beings.
YOUR BOSS DID NOT ASK?
No, he did not. Neither of us did. We thought of so many questions when we left that we should have asked, but when you see something like that, you’re so shocked at what you are seeing that you kind of forget to dig scientifically.
EVEN THOUGH YOU AND YOUR BOSS HAD BEEN WORKING ON A CIA BLUE BOOK PROJECT TO ANALYZE UNEXPLAINED BLUE BOOK FILES, THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU WERE ACTUALLY SHOWN REAL DISCS?
Yes, that was the first and only time.
WAS THAT BEFORE OR AFTER YOU WENT TO SEE THE GREY-SKINNED BEING AT AREA 51?
That was before we saw the being. SO, YOU SAW THE DISCS FIRST.
Yes, we walked on the walkway into the underground mountain hangar where we saw the discs. Then we went back out into another building that was around the corner of the little mountain area there. Then we got to the big main building outside where we saw the alien.
WHO WAS ESCORTING YOU, YOUR BOSS AND THE THREE MEN FROM THE CIA?
It was that USAF Col. Jim. His name tag was not full. He just had his first name there.
YOU GUYS HAD BADGES WITH YOUR NAMES?
We had CIA identification badges that had our picture on it and our CIA cover names. My boss had used his own name for years, but mine was a phony name as were the others using phony names.
SO, NONE OF YOU KNEW WHO EACH OF YOU REALLY WERE?
Right, none of us knew who each of us really was. My boss was the only one who knew my real name because I came through the back door into the CIA by teaching in the Army Signal Corps.
Derelict “Death” As Way Out of CIA
IN TERMS OF YOUR RECORDS FROM 1956 TO 1960 IN THE ARMY SIGNAL CORPS AND SIMULTANEOUSLY FOR THE CIA, WHERE WOULD THOSE RECORDS BE?
It was a common practice that in that highly classified area, the records would be destroyed if you left or died, as far as the CIA portion was concerned. My military DD-214 just shows that I was teaching in the Army Signal Corps down there, an instructor. It doesn’t give anything about my having a TOP SECRET White House clearance or anything like that. According to my military records, I was just an instructor in the Signal Corps at the southeastern base.
WHEN YOU LEFT IN 1960, WOULD YOU EXPLAIN IF SOMEBODY WERE TRYING TO TRACK YOU - EVEN BY THE PHONY NAME YOU HAD ON YOUR CIA NAME BADGE - COULD THOSE PHONY NAMES BE TRACED?
When we were working on the CIA Blue Book project, my colleagues there had gone out to some foreign areas for field research. I was the only one that I know of in our CIA group that got out alive. The others were killed on field assignments in Turkey and other countries.
BECAUSE THEY HAD UFO KNOWLEDGE?
Yes, because they were checking out UFO leads in Turkey and other foreign lands. There was a big problem with the CIA at that time in the 1950s and 1960s. They had so many double agents. A lot of those people were eliminated (killed off) just because the CIA thought they might be double agents.
BUT YOU WERE ABLE TO GET OUT IN 1960?
My time was up to be discharged in July 1960, so I had a chance. The CIA wanted me to stay, but when I saw all the other people being eliminated (murdered to keep them quiet), I told my boss I definitely wanted to take my discharge and get out.
He said there was probably only one way I could get by and that was to set up a situation, which he did only a few weeks after I received my discharge. His records showed I was out somewhere on some kind of a field operation on UFOs, but what he did – which they had done for some other people in earlier years. We had a real hot spell in July in that southern state where the military base was. There were some elderly street people who had died. My boss and his group just picked up one of those dead street people and put my phony CIA name identification on the body and ran it officially through the city of --------. Then my boss had the dead body cremated. After the cremation, the ashes were spread in the river down there. So, the CIA name I used officially was on the person who died.
THAT’S WHAT ALLOWED YOU TO MOVE BACK INTO THE CIVILIAN WORLD UNDER YOUR ORIGINAL NAME?
Yes. If I had said I’m quitting and getting out, I’m sure the CIA would have killed me to prevent my getting out and talking about the classified UFO stuff. We had 26 people to start with in that CIA Project Blue Book and I was the only one that survived and got out because my boss helped me with the phony body cover.”
YOUR CIA BOSS HELPED YOU ‘DIE’ WITHOUT ANYBODY KNOWING. HE WAS PROTECTING YOU FROM HIS OWN AGENCY?
Yes, protection was a very important back in those days. Years ago when JFK was president in 1960 to 1963 and his brother, Robert, was Attorney General, they learned that what they were getting was almost worthless.
MEANING THAT JFK AND RFK FOUND THAT THE INFORMATION THEY WERE GETTING FROM THE CIA WAS WORTHLESS?
Yes, that’s why he came out with a comment that he was going to get rid of the CIA and just have the FBI work overseas like the CIA. JFK and RFK were angry about getting bum information and I think that’s why JFK made the statement and that’s what made the CIA so nervous nervous that they were all going to lose their jobs.”
“I Will Smash the CIA ...and Scatter Them to the Wind”
Robert and John F. Kennedy, early 1960s.
Image courtesy Simon & Schuster.
On April 27, 1961, U. S. President John F. Kennedy spoke to the National News Publishers Association at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York City:
“The very word ‘secrecy’ is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings. We decided long ago that the dangers of excessive and unwarranted concealment of pertinent facts far outweighed the dangers which are cited to justify it. Even today, there is little value in opposing the threat of a closed society by imitating its arbitrary restrictions. Even today, there is little value in insuring the survival of our nation if our traditions do not survive with it. And there is very grave danger that an announced need for increased security will be seized upon by those anxious to expand its meaning to the very limits of official censorship and concealment. That I do not intend to permit to the extent that it’s in my control. And no official of my Administration, whether his rank is high or low, civilian or military, should interpret my words here tonight as an excuse to censor the news, to stifle dissent, to cover up our mistakes or to withhold from the press and the public the facts they deserve to know.”
Later, JFK promised U. S. Senator Mike Mansfield that “after I am re-elected, I will smash the CIA into a thousand pieces, and scatter them to the wind.”